13. Growing Your Marketing Team in a Virtual World w/ Joe Matar

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Joe Matar - VP Marketing at Brazen

Joe Matar, VP of Marketing at Brazen, and his team have seen an unprecedented demand for their technology in the virtual recruiting space over the last six months as many companies have moved their operations completely online. In this episode, Joe sits down with your host, Devin Kelley, to share how he and his expanding team have adapted to keep up with the growth they have seen in our newly remote world.

In addition, we’ll also touch on:

  • Some of Joe’s favorite technology tools like HubSpot, Trello, and Asana
  • Proactively looking at data to inform your marketing strategies
  • The importance of detailed process, especially as teams grow

Transcript of Episode

Joe: [00:00:01] You know, before the crisis hit, our marketing team was just me. We’ve seen that demand for our technology, go up 40, 50 x by the end of the year. I think our marketing team had gone from one person to probably four or five.

[00:00:20] And you’re listening to the Marketing Behind the Curtain podcast, where we pull back the curtain on the people, processes and technologies leading marketers are using to fuel growth within their organizations. Let’s get into the show.

Devin: [00:00:33] Welcome to another episode of Marketing Behind the Curtain, where we take a look at all the hard work that happens behind the scenes by marketers to put a shiny outward face on the organizations that you all see from a marketing front every day. Devin Kelly with Method Savvy, a consultancy to help some business leaders find a better way to grow their businesses. Today, I’d like to welcome Joe Matar, and he’s the vice president of marketing with Brazen. We’re just a couple hours from each other down. I’m down here in Durham. Joe’s up in the D.C. area. Joe, thanks for joining us.

Joe: [00:01:08] Yeah, and thanks for thanks for having me and actually, you know, I think that my home spot is D.C., but right now I’m in Wisconsin, so I joined some beautiful weather that is not the 98 degrees and humid that that is D.C. right now.

Devin: [00:01:28] Awesome. Awesome. You’re over performing the very humid Durham at the moment and a little jealous there. But give us a quick introduction to yourself and to the brazen.

Joe: [00:01:42] Yes, sure.

Joe: [00:01:43] So, you know, as you mentioned of the vice president of marketing that represented been here for about three years, I started my marketing career and working for a marketing agency similar to yourself. I was one of the first two or three employees at an agency in the Midwest called Fusion Farm and was able to help grow that agency up to twenty or twenty five people by the time I left. But I joined Verizon about three years ago. And Verizon is a virtual career fair platform, a virtual hiring fair platform that B2B SAS, a company that sells to enterprise recruiting teams, as well as universities and workforce development agencies, government agencies, health care, health care groups really kind of run the whole gamut with individuals or companies looking to to to take their recruiting online.

Devin: [00:02:55] Also, my one of my first gigs at a school was in the recruiting space. And I’ll tell you, that was the time built on blood, sweat and tears. It’s nothing automated or or developer oriented there and certainly could have used to help.

Joe: [00:03:13] Yeah, you know, I think that there’s certainly been a huge push of technology in our space in the last five, 10 years, and it’s it’s actually it’s something that I actually am pretty passionate about.

Joe: [00:03:29] I actually think a lot of the blood, sweat and tears, I think we’re losing a lot of that in the recruiting space. And I think a lot of that is needed even with what the  technologies can only take you so far. And I think that in recruiting, like in marketing and sales, a lot of it’s about the relationship building. And, you know, we hear a lot about chat bots and and Verizon does offer some of some of those tech biology components. But at the end of the day, a lot of this stuff is just like a human to human connection. And so I’m sure a lot of what you learned back in the days is still super relevant even today.

Devin: [00:04:07] Yeah, well, you know, the the value you can provide somebody in connecting the dots and helping them find a role that that suits them both from a monetary perspective, but also just from like a fullfillment perspective goes a long, long way and always think about that.

Joe: [00:04:25] And even now, we touched on the fact that it’s summer, but we’re in the midst of covid craziness here. And I always kind of try to go out of my way to help people find a new role if they’re looking or having to make some changes because of the way the world works now and that whether you’re in a recruiting role or not, that that stuff just goes a long way.

Devin: [00:04:47] And I imagine you guys have seen your business either become far more integral in people’s efforts throughout the last, I don’t know, six months or so at this point.

Joe: [00:05:00] Well, yeah, I mean, I think one of the coolest things that I’ve seen is we certainly have some of clients that unfortunately have had to furlough people or let people go. And but they’ve they’ve continued to actually give back to the community, I guess, as what I’ll call it. And there’s there’s examples of some of our clients that are hosting these events where they’re recruiting team.

Joe: [00:05:32] While they’re not hiring or bringing on new people, the recruiters will invite job seekers, the millions of people who have lost their jobs and invite those job seekers to an event, or they’ll help them, like review their resume, give them resume help, give them interview tips again with no motivation or knowing that they’re not hiring. But they’re just like giving back to all these people who have lost jobs to help them go find jobs with employers that are hiring. So that’s really cool to say.

Devin: [00:06:07] Yeah, that is that is good to see. And I think everybody’s become kind of hyper aware of the fact that maybe not everything is going smoothly for everyone and is very conscious of the fact they may be able to be helpful, whether it be on the resume front door connecting a door for someone to maybe work with in the past.

Devin: [00:06:29] And I think that’s probably a positive outcome to however crazy the world is today, that everybody is just realizing they can be a little more helpful to everybody else.

Joe: [00:06:40] For sure.

Devin: [00:06:41] Well on some of the people front, we always kind of talk through the people process and technology on the marketing front that you guys utilize to kind of put a shiny pretty face on on Brazen. And you want to talk us through a little bit what kind of the marketing team looks like there and feel free to touch on the fact that whoever your team is working today is probably a little different than it was before. So whatever the before times look like here versus what today’s reality is, is something that I think everybody is kind of having to struggle through together.

Joe: [00:07:19] Yeah, for sure, I mean, just real quickly, as we were kind of talking about before we hit record here today, Brazen has certainly benefited from the changes in our world for those organizations that are looking to continue to hire. You know, they do need virtual technologies, virtual options, and so presents virtual career, fair platform, virtual hiring event platform is has really taken off post covid.

Joe: [00:07:51] And we see that demand for our technology go up 40, 50 x since March 9th. Our leads have just continued to pour in, which is we’re very fortunate. And so before the crisis hit, our marketing team was was just me. So for the last two and a half years, we’ve had a small, lean, mean fighting machine in the marketing area of reason. With that being said, of course, I’ve got some great freelancers, an amazing writer that I’ve worked with for the last couple of years, and some designers to help with content and a videographer, the amazing videographer that we work with to create video assets and video content. But since the crisis hit back in March, we’ve been quickly growing our internal marketing team so excited to announce that we just actually hired a manager, Legion manager. We are hiring a digital content manager or hiring like a marketing ops person. We’re working with a couple marketing consultants on our CEO and helping me with launching a bunch of webinars that we’re doing. So our team is is growing very, very quickly here. And so by the end of the year, I think our marketing team will have gone from one person to probably four or five, including some product marketing managers that we’re bringing on board as well.

Devin: [00:09:37] Awesome. Awesome. And I know this is obviously changing the world for many, many people, but it’s nice to see you guys find that this is a growth area for your business.

Devin: [00:09:50] And I don’t know if you have any of those jobs posted now, but feel free to get a get a hiring plug in here and see if any marketing folks from the North Carolina area want to make their way up or if some of our DC networks are looking for something new. You get a hiring plug in here?

Joe: [00:10:08] Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s a number one. You know, we are our company has really changed our way of thinking as it comes to remote working, and we’re definitely open to remote workers. So the demand gen person I hired is in is in New York and we’ve got someone out in Boston as well. So but yeah, we do have this content marketing role open. And I would say my plug is if you’re if you’re a marketer looking for your next amazing opportunity, just hit me up on LinkedIn. I’d love to talk to you. We can we can talk about all the roles that we’ve got coming up, even if they’re not posted.

Devin: [00:10:45] Awesome. Awesome.

Devin: [00:10:46] Well, I think it’s super interesting, especially the growth from kind of being a marketing leader that works with a disparate group of maybe specialists. Right. You mentioned having folks on the video front or on the content front or maybe like a subject matter expert in something.

Devin: [00:11:03] So what do you what do processes look for you guys there? Are you using project management to manage a bunch of individual contributors? Are these people you’ve worked with before and you just advocated with like that? Is that is stuff actually get done when when you’re the hub and there are a whole bunch of spokes and maybe how’s that changing as you look at having more direct reports rather than kind of part time or project oriented help?

Joe: [00:11:34] Yeah, I mean, I think that that will certainly see some significant changes to our process now that our team is growing rapidly prior to to to Covid, it was a little bit more simple of times. I guess I’ll put it. You know, I worked with this amazing freelance writer and we just had our cadence down. It was a blog post. We come up with like four or five topics for the month and at the beginning of the month or before the month started. And we just heard her due date for an outline. Was Thursday the due date for the for me to review. It was Friday. And she had it written by the week after on Tuesday, and it was published and posted on Social by Wednesday. So we just kind of had that cadence and that rhythm down and kind of like any outside help that I had know I had that. But I can already tell, as we’ve got like right now, three or four individuals with their hand in the pot, in the marketing pot.

Joe: [00:12:47] It’s certainly becoming more important to leverage tools like Trello and Asana. I’m a Trello user.

Joe: [00:12:58] How I keep track of every project and everything I’ve got going on for me personally. But now that we’ve got a few individuals on the team, our team is using Azana as a project management tool. And I actually, when I worked in the agency, was and it was helping build teams.

Joe: [00:13:21] I spent a couple of years building our website and so really diving into it, spent a lot of time refining process. And I think just some of the things I’ve learned there that I know I will apply to the new marketing team is being very, very, you know. So focusing on making sure that you’re detailing your breaking down projects for the whole team to understand which parts they’re responsible for, so instead of just saying that we want to have, let’s say, a webinar that we’re going to do in a couple of weeks, and actually we have got a webinar coming up here in a couple of weeks with some of our customers like Deloitte and a group to talk about campus recruiting, because that’s a hot topic. Instead of putting that as a card, let’s say, on your Asana board, you really have to break it down as to like, what are all of the pieces, the mining details, the checklists, the things that are required to make this webinar happen and then assigning each of those pieces to one owner? I think that a lot of teams get into these traps of where they assign multiple people to a card and your project management tools. And that’s just you’re setting yourself up for disaster because a task assigned to more than one person usually gets done by no one. So so, yeah, that’s just those are just some of the learnings that I’ve experienced over time when it comes to process of managing a team of marketers.

Devin: [00:15:05] That’s that’s awesome, we at Method Savvy, we have become Asana of people in the last month or two here because you should really change project management systems in the middle of everyone working from home during a pandemic. I’m taking notes as you talk about how to effectively utilize the song here, because we’re all we’re all learning through that on our side.

Devin: [00:15:27] So this is especially relevant today.

Joe: [00:15:31] Good.

Devin: [00:15:34] On the on the technology side, you guys are obviously a technology platform and talk about the change that you drive in organizations on the hiring side, but you mentioned project management systems and also having kind of run a Web team from an agency side of things.

Devin: [00:15:53] So what are the kind of tech tools that you see as as key to just getting stuff out the door, whether it be on the website or the internal project management side, like you were mentioning on Asana to anything cool from a I’m like a Gmail plug-in nerd, so always, always like the cool tech tools that people are using on the marketing front.

Joe: [00:16:16] Yeah, I mean, I think that we’re pretty simple when it comes to technology or I love HubSpot and I’ve been using HubSpot for ten years now, it seems like, and we use it here for a reason as well. And I was on the agency side. We were HubSpot partner.

Joe: [00:16:34] And HubSpot helps us with the marketing automation of cars, nurturing all of these leads that are coming into the funnel. We use HubSpot for a lot of our landing pages and conversion pages, really looking to kind of mature as an organization by being better at lead scoring. I’ve got some really basic kind of structures in HubSpot right now to help us lead score and give us the the signals as to when a weed becomes ready to pass on to our readers and to our sales team. But, yeah, I mean, I couldn’t I couldn’t work without without HubSpot. We also use Salesforce, of course, as leads become and turn into opportunities. We kind of manage everything in Salesforce of our pipeline and revenue generation. And, you know, I think one of the maybe the things to note as far as technologies, you know, that I’ve learned and just the last four months is getting really, really into connecting and closing the loop between our HubSpot and Salesforce platforms. What I mean by that is as we have increased our investment and paid advertising or investing in review sites, it’s great to see from a marketing perspective, not just like where your leads are coming from, but now I’ve got product dashboards that can show me in real time like work and how far those leads are in the funnel, in the sales funnel and what is our projected revenue based on that stage that each lead is. And and then also what is real time data showing us for revenue generated by each of those channels so that I can feel confident that my significant spend and and Google ads is actually leading to to revenue and that some baseline metrics set up as to like what that, you know, how many multiples on top of our spend we expect and revenue to justify justify that spend.

Joe: [00:19:00] So so, yeah, that’s that’s kind of the technologies and a little bit of them.

Devin: [00:19:06] Yeah. I think the Yeah. The, the dashboard and metrics piece there I think is huge.

Devin: [00:19:11] And certainly over the last several years I think it’s, it’s kind of gotten to the point that there’s there’s no excuse, you kind of don’t have those things integrated and and data passed back and forth and the view of kind of marketing investment into their pipeline or ultimately revenue.

Devin: [00:19:31] And definitely spent a lot of time on on that, whether it’s HubSpot or Marketo or Pardot or Salesforce marketing cloud or whatever Salesforce is calling it this week and tying that back into kind of revenue there at the end of the day.

Devin: [00:19:46] But it’s one thing to kind of set those dashboards up for yourself just to save yourself from kind of running a report or something like that.

Devin: [00:19:55] But how how have you found those kind of KPIs or developing those KPIs and servicing that information kind of tied in with the rest of the team, whether it’s to your boss or focus on the sales side? And have you found a way to take some of that information and elevated or use some of the kind of live data you were talking about there?

Devin: [00:20:17] Or better educate your team or just align kind of goals overall? Better.

Joe: [00:20:25] Yeah, I mean, I think that you have to be super aware of who your audience is when you’re thinking about data and metrics and dashboards and, you know, it’s really hard to to measure everything and it’s even harder to try to, like, pull out insights and try to force all of those insights to whomever you’re trying to describe how things are going in marketing. So and what I mean by that is for my bosses, our president and our founder and our CEO, they don’t necessarily need to understand the conversion rates on our landing pages or the the cost per click of our Google ads or the the quality of of leads that we’re passing to to sales. They ultimately just want to know that the the investment that the company is making or that I’m making and in marketing and, you know, some of the channels that I’ve decided to make significant marketing investments and they want to know that the investment is worth the return. And so so, yeah, a lot of the dashboard stuff and that I just talked about, I’m actually sharing those and I built these dashboards actually to give give those to individuals my boss’s real time access to like what I’m seeing now. They may ask why something is is going up or down. And then that’s why it’s important for a marketing team to actually have access to some of the details.

Joe: [00:22:19] And that’s where we probably do get into trying to understand and have reporting on all of the I call the micro conversion points throughout the funnel.

Joe: [00:22:29] We’re measuring those things and constantly trying to optimize and maximize each of each of those conversion points.

Joe: [00:22:38] And so far, for the individual marketers, it on the team. We do need to be tracking that stuff. And, you know, we have some pretty, I guess, comprehensive dashboards created like auction insights and looking at how our different ad groups are competing against our competitors and looking at how how well we’re doing for our keywords and match mapping our content back to our our keywords and tracking every one of these blog posts that we’re creating and seeing what sort of conversions they’re they’re creating over time and what keywords they’re ranking for. And how are that how is that relating back to our original strategy for what we were trying to do?

Joe: [00:23:26] So, yeah, we do get into the weeds and and it can be a lot of times, you know, you never want to get to the point where you’re just, like, paralyzed by having so much data that it doesn’t allow you to execute. But but yeah, I guess the other conclusion is that you do need to be tracking a lot, but you also have to be thinking about who’s your audience when you’re creating, like dashboards and reports, because not every individual within your organization cares about the same stuff.

Devin: [00:23:56] Right. And that that line is so fickle between, like, putting information in front of that audience and having it just lead to more questions, to being clear and aligned on on kind of what’s important and not just giving someone a dashboard for them to ask you five questions about what’s going on. Right. Like what’s the balance between informing folks and just setting yourself up for a barrage of follow up? Yeah, and it happens, no doubt.

Joe: [00:24:30] You also have to be proactive. I think, like, I probably can get caught in this, maybe spending a little bit too much time with with dashboards. But as as I’m sure you know, working with lots of B2B startup type companies, I mean, things move super fast. And right now, like there’s tons of competition, they are breathing down our necks and its stuff is changing daily, half daily, hourly.

Joe: [00:25:02] And so, like, we’re we’re always trying to stay on top of of those changes. And if leads seem to be not coming in at the same pace they were a few hours earlier or the day before or even looking at week over week, I want to try to be proactive and notice that.

Joe: [00:25:24] For potentially, my bosses see the change so that I can then get it back to the marketing team to do some research as to why maybe things are broken or changing. And I think that that to me, that can help if you can proactively reach out to those stakeholders that you report to and show them that you do have a plan. I notice things have changed. Here’s kind of what we’re seeing, our initial thoughts. Here’s what we’re going to do and I’ll report back to you when we’ve made the changes. And so then it changes the conversation to here’s a plan that we have based on the data that we’ve already looked into, as opposed to just getting that barrage of questions and not being able to answer them because you haven’t spent the time to look into it.

Devin: [00:26:20] Yeah, that’s an awesome point is I think people sometimes misunderstand the fact that, like there’s live data or a dashboard or something like that to the fact that they don’t have to be proactive or don’t have to go look into those things anymore.

Devin: [00:26:35] And it got to some point, though, doesn’t doesn’t replace those things, may replace an Excel report, but it doesn’t replace the insights from it.

Joe: [00:26:45] Right. I mean, it’s no excuse. Just because they have the data, though, doesn’t mean you can just sit back and and not do anything with it. So.

Devin: [00:26:54] Right, right. Well, you mentioned you mentioned the competitive space and how competitive your kind of market has become specifically here and outside of the technology space.

Devin: [00:27:07] I had a question about the brand and the the Brazen name. I kind of like the name and the meaning behind Brazen to begin with. But how do you guys think about brazing as a name and the brand that’s there and the fact that it kind of stands for something on its own and kind of living up for that?

Devin: [00:27:27] I think that’s a the it’s an interesting take on just language in general, but also like you’ve kind of put a stake in the ground with the name itself as to how you guys are going to operate.

Joe: [00:27:41] Yeah, I mean, we’ve actually so Brazen been around for I don’t know if I mentioned this, but been around for ten plus years and we actually started as our president and founder, Ryan Healy, really started this company because he was like this young millennial at the time, ten plus years ago.

Joe: [00:28:04] Now he’s an older millennial, but he was writing all of this content blog posts that were being picked up by like Good Morning America, The New York Times, a bunch of major news outlets, because he was like the only millennial talking about how millennials should and could be finding jobs. He was pretty much like going against the traditional way of finding jobs and said that the workforce, the future of work needs to change. And millennials want something so much different than Gen X and and baby boomers. And, you know, I think that just through like his writing, it just became pretty clear and pretty obvious that he was being brazen and his thoughts, you know, he was very bold and audacious and really trying to shift the way work is done and the way work or the way millennials find jobs. And so our original name was called Brazen Careerist because we were focusing on being brazen in your career search. Now, five, six, seven years ago, we pivoted the organization and no longer focused on the job seeker. Our audience then became the recruiters and talent acquisition professionals. So we dropped the career path but kept the brains apart.

Joe: [00:29:29] And yeah, I mean, I think that that that kind of that mentality, that mind set has kind of stuck with us, even though maybe we don’t go after the same audience.

Joe: [00:29:39] I think that, you know, now we’re helping recruiters to find people who are brazen and maybe they’re their career search.

Joe: [00:29:52] So. So, yeah, I mean, I think there’s still a lot of ties to to the original kind of concept and name, I can tell you, like from a marketer for praise.

Joe: [00:30:02] And I think a lot of what we do in the marketing space might be considered a little bit brazen and a little bit different, a little bit unique compared to some of our competitors and some of the other brands and and technology brands in our space. And just some of the especially the content that we’re created, I think kind of follows the same philosophy that’s inherent in a system in the name of our company. And I think it’s really helped us stand out because, as you know, it’s it’s really hard to stand out these days. There’s so many companies, so much competition, so many so many marketers fighting for the attention of all of the customers or prospects of an audience that you really do have to have a little bit of brazenness and need to stand out and to fight for and to capture the attention off of my our guys always talk about radical differentiation.

Devin: [00:31:02] And I think that I like the Brazen attitude there. I think it said to my stake in the ground, sounds like you guys have been able to keep it up. Now, it’s awesome to see the evolution of that, too, and how content is turned to the product. And but content continues to be kind of a differentiator for you guys for sure.

Joe: [00:31:25] It’s fun.

Devin: [00:31:27] Well, I appreciate you kind of walking us, walking us through that. One of the last questions I always ask is it’s it’s great when you have things buttoned up and the team’s working well together and the processes are humming right along and the technology is doing what it’s supposed to do.

Devin: [00:31:43] But you look behind the curtain a little bit, there’s always some funny mistakes in there or maybe close calls where you publish a blog post doesn’t have anything, any content in it, or you run an ad campaign for Christmas during July by mistake. So is there any experiences like that you’ve had over your time with Berezan where maybe you were you were trying to be a little more out there than you should have been and maybe got out over your skis or had a close call with hitting publish before you should up?

Devin: [00:32:20] Yeah, I mean, I guess the question is, you know, are we are there mistakes that have been made?

Joe: [00:32:27] I mean, yeah, without a doubt.

Joe: [00:32:29] I mean, honestly, the thing that pops up in my head is recently we realize and I mean, this is just so embarrassing, but like we’ve been running and like I said, investing heavily in Google ads and other paid channels. But that’s kind of been our big one.

Joe: [00:32:52] And we realized after running ads for quite some time that our conversion tracking was all messed up on our website. So what was happening was our conversion tracking was on every single page on our site. And so we were telling Google to maximize our campaign based on conversions. And pretty much every click every time someone clicked on our ad and came to our website, it was firing back to Google that that was a conversion. And so we were just like every single day we were just like we couldn’t figure out why we were getting so many bad leads. And this went on for weeks and weeks and weeks, like, yes, we were getting lots of good leads, but we just didn’t ever feel we just thought that there was a lot of wasted dollars going on.

Joe: [00:33:51] And, you know, it took it actually took bringing on a Burgert on a marketing consultant, someone who had worked with in the past, that I just knew that this was such an important investment.

Joe: [00:34:06] And I just I needed to to bring on something before we before we were hiring someone, which we’ve done now. But yeah. But after working with him, maybe just for like 30 minutes on a call to determine that we were our conversions were equal in our clicks and Google ads.

Joe: [00:34:26] And again, it seems so obvious in retrospect. But but, yeah, it was it was a major mistake. And once we got that conversion tracking cleaned up, we’ve just been humming along. So so it was it happens.

Devin: [00:34:43] It does. And, you know, we had a run into situations like that all the time with clients. We had we had somebody make a similar mistake, but did it with all ads on mobile traffic.

Devin: [00:34:56] So it was doing it off like fat finger clicks in it. Same deal where like it wasn’t even turning into the conversions. But just every time you fat finger banner ad on a mobile device, it was being counted.

Devin: [00:35:08] And that was that was not a great metric to have in place either. But yeah, it’s the devil’s in the details sometimes on those.

Joe: [00:35:18] Absolutely. One hundred percent. That’s why you get a higher really detail oriented people when you yourself are not a detail person and I am not a detail person.

Devin: [00:35:29] No I’m not. I’m not either. So I can I can relate to that. And, you know, you got to guy to hire for your own gaps.

Joe: [00:35:37] That’s right.

Devin: [00:35:39] Well, I appreciate you sharing with us today.

Devin: [00:35:41] Appreciate you walking us through kind of how Brazen’s been working and growing and wish you the best of luck on the hiring front here. If I know you mentioned that anyone wants to get in touch, you’re always available through LinkedIn. You mentioned that you guys have some webinars coming up. Any other plugs you want to drop in here in terms of how to get in touch with you or how to keep an eye out for brazen as we wrap up?

Joe: [00:36:06] Oh, no, I think you nailed it. LinkedIn is definitely my go to social platform. I’m fairly active there. And definitely, like I said, we are hiring and we’ll continue to hire throughout this year.

Joe: [00:36:17] So hit me up on LinkedIn. Let’s talk. I’d love to see how you might be able to add some value to a fast growing B2B SaaS company and.

Devin: [00:36:26] Yeah, awesome. Appreciate you joining us and thanks for the time.

Joe: [00:36:33] Thanks, Devin. This has been fun.
[00:36:36] You’ve been listening to marketing behind the curtain to ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribed to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time.

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